This article by our brilliant former Editor, Harry Mullan, first appeared in full inย Boxing Newsย on December 13, 1974. Just weeks after scoring one of the finest victories of his glittering career over George Foreman in Zaire, ‘The Greatest’ was in London where this interview took place.
THEย Brothers are everywhere, impeccably polite, helpful, and courteous. Maybe itโs my imagination, but I find them somehow frightening.
They guard Muhammad as if every man is his enemyโ to get to see him, you go through three or four intermediaries, and when youโre talking to him every word is tape-recorded, very ostentatiously, by a large bearded gent sitting at your elbow, lest you dare misquote the Man.
Itโs not ideal conditions for a pleasant, relaxed interview, but when youโre offered a chance to meet the heavyweight champion of the world you donโt haggle about the terms.
He sits by the French windows, feet up on a chair, and looks out over Hyde Park. โMan, I love this town,โ he says to nobody in particular. โI must get to spend a little more time here, maybe bring my family for a vacation.โ Itโs a futile hope โ part of the price he pays for being Muhammad Ali is that he can never have a vacation as others understand it, for wherever he goes heโll be treated as a superchamp rather than just a family man on holiday.
He speaks in a flat, bored monotone โ heโs heard it all before. However, he shows some animation when I mention his family.
โAll this travelling that you do means that you lose a lot of time with your wife and kids. Do you resent that at all?โ
โYes, I do sometimes, but itโs all well worth it. Iโm makinโ a lot of money for them so they wonโt have to do all this hard work, and Iโm also doinโ it for my people and helpinโ humanity, so Iโm satisfied with what I accomplish when Iโm away from them.
โI canโt be a strict father. My wife is strict, but I canโt be that way. I whup them one day for doinโ somethinโ and the next day I allow them to do it. If they want a cracker or a piece of candy I tell them: โNo, you gotta have dinner firstโ, and all they gotta do is look sad, work on my heart, and theyโll get it.โ
I remarked that we donโt see many pictures or stories on his family over here, and asked him was it difficult to keep his domestic life private. โMy children have been in all the magazines and sports books in America, and maybe a few here which you havenโt noticed.
โTheyโre publicised a lot. They donโt like it, but sometimes you canโt help it.โ
โIf you had had the opportunity to choose a life for yourself other than boxing, what would it have been?โ, I ask him.
โJust a minister of Elijah Mohammad. Thereโs nothinโ as great as working for God, just savinโ people, helpinโ them, convertinโ them, helpinโ them to lead better lives, cleaninโ them up physically, morally, and spiritually. This is a great work.
โI would have to do somethinโ like that if I wasnโt boxinโ, to satisfy myself. Somethinโ that would help people, and my people are the ones that I would want to help primarily. God blesses those who help themselves, and charity begins at home first at home, so I cannot worry about the problems of other people.
โWe all have to worry about our own problems first before we can talk about helpinโ somebody else, so the onliest way I could really help my people is to teach them a clearer knowledge of themselves, their religion, their God, their names and their languages which have been robbed and taken from us since we have been under the white rule of America for the past 400 years.โ
He speaks with obvious sincerity โ believe me, his racial and religious attitudes are no gimmick, and this becomes even plainer with my next question. It has always intrigued me whether someone who is himself idolised by millions has his own personal heroes, and if so, who are they.
โI donโt like that word โidolisedโ,โ he says. โIโm not lookinโ to be idolised. Iโm not in boxing to be recognised as great in everyday life. Iโm the greatest in the ring, but when I come out Iโm just a brother, humble like other people.
โI donโt try to be idolised, I donโt want to be idolised. You should idolise God, and the prophets and messengers of God, so you shouldnโt idolise men. You can like me, but thereโs no need to idolise me.
โWho are my heroes? Who would I like to meet? Iโd like to meet the leader of China, Mao Tse Tung. Yeah, Iโd like to meet him. A man who can take 600 million people who are starving and feed themโฆ600 million people! Let me tell you my friend, thatโs a lot of people.
โJust one million people is a lot of people, 100,000 people to feed is a lot of people, but a man who can feed 600 million people and be independent of the European and the Western powers โ man, this is great.
โIโd just like to meet him and see him, talk to him through an interpreter and ask him questions, and learn how he did it, what made him strong.
โIโd also like to meet Jomo Kenyatta, a great African freedom fighter, and Fidel Castro โ Iโd love to meet him.
โIโd like to meet anyone who struggles against all the powers that are against him, whether it be in America or wherever, and is victorious. Anyone who comes under the style of what the Americans would call โrebelsโ, that is against America. These are the type of people I would like to meet.
Defeat for Muhammad Ali means so much more than just losing a fight โ it means the shattering of his whole mystique. How much does he fear defeat, and how does he adjust to it when it happens?
โI never fear defeat at all. Youโve never really lost a fight as long as thereโs a voice inside you sayinโ: โKeep on fightinโ,โ and I feel that Iโve lost when I donโt hear that voice.
โMy jaw was broken with Ken Norton but I came back. I lost the first Joe Frazier fight but I came back, and I wasnโt supposed to beat George Forman. All the experts said Iโd get beat, but that voice said keep on goinโ and I won.
โNo sir, I donโt fear defeat at allโ.
Since he mentioned Foreman, I asked him how far in advance he had planned the extraordinary tactics he used โ tactics which should have been suicidal against a hitter with Foremanโs supposed power.
โI didnโt plan the tactics until about the middle of the first round: I found I was movinโ and dancinโ, I was usinโ twice as much energy as him just to keep out of his way, and I figured that after 10 rounds of that Iโd be flat-footed and tired, not able to raise the fitness.
โTen rounds is a long time, and after five more rounds he could probably have got me. Heโd got the punch for it, so I figured that if I just lay on the ropes and let him punch hisself outโฆIโd noticed his goal is always to catch you on the ropes and just whale away, blast away.
โHe can whale you, bang you and hurt you and I figured that if I go to the ropes like I do in traininโ a lot, and if he canโt really hurt me, if he donโt get nothinโ through, then I figure mmmm, heโll get tired, but if I went to the ropes and found he was as powerful as Iโd heard and he was hurtinโ me, then Iโd have took a gamble on dancinโ the whole distance and hopinโ that Iโd knock him out, just waitinโ till that moment came when I had to go to him.
โAfter goinโ to the ropes I found that he was doinโ a lot of punchinโ but a lot of them werenโt aimed right, they were meaningless punches. He wasnโt aiminโ right and he was tirinโ, so after Iโd tried it in the middle of the first round I decided I must stay on the ropes in every round if this is what tires him out.
โNot just stay on the ropes, but hit him at the end of every round, take the shot whenever I could see it, and after round seven you saw his arms so heavy and so tired he couldnโt stand.
โHe was mostly exhausted โ he was knocked out and exhausted. If Iโd knocked him down in the second round he would probably have had the power to get up again. The strength was taken out of him BEFORE the knockdown, so that to recover from the knockdown and pull himself up was too much.
โThat is what happened, My plans were to move the whole fight if I had to, but I found that I didnโt really have to.โ
Self-confidence, supreme and total, has always been Aliโs trademark, but I have often wondered whether, inside himself, he ever had any real doubts about a fight.
โIโve had a lot of fights like that.
โI always go in there hopinโ I can do it โ not really doubtinโ, but Iโm not SURE. I wouldnโt use the word โdoubtโ, but Iโm not really thatย sure, and this is a good sign. When you get too sure, when youโre not nervous, most likely youโre gonna get beat.
โThe first Frazier fight I wasnโt too nervous, I was confident, too confident. The first Norton fight, Iโd never heard of him, and these were the two fights I lost. So when Iโm a little nervous, when I get that doubtful feelinโ, then Iโm a little frightened and nervous, and this is a good sign in an athlete, whether heโs a ballplayer or a boxer, so I always have a little bit of that.
โI always have it in my mind what I wouldย likeย to do. Maybe I get problems and I canโt do it, but I alwaysย tryย to do it.โ
You probably couldnโt even begin to estimate the money Ali sacrificed through his refusal to join the American Army in 1967. Does he ever regret that decision?
โYou donโt regret somethinโ youโre losinโ for a belief. Fellas go to Vietnam, they go to war, they fight for what they believe in. You got the Catholics and the Protestants in Ireland fightinโ, you got the Biafrans and the Nigerians fightinโ, you got the people of my race fightinโ in America.
โWhatever the fightโs for, if a man believes in what heโs doinโ then he donโt consider nothinโ a loss, even if it means dyinโ. I canโt consider anythinโ a loss that I did for my black people of America. It was a gain, not a loss.
โI didnโt lose no money, I gained. The Lord God has blessed me now to make 10 times more money than I would have made if I hadnโt rejected the Vietnam war, abjurinโ my religion.
โIโm offered now 10 million dollars a fight, and Iโd have never got this if I didnโt fight the Vietnam war callup, so how can I regret losinโ them pennies? Iโm 10 times bigger now.โ
His courageous stand against the war โ and donโt forget he was one of the first public figures to oppose American participation โ didnโt just lose him money. It also cost him a lot of popularity in his own country, yet over here he is probably more popular than anywhere else. Why did he think this was?
โA prophet is never honoured in his own homeโ, I told you. Iโm not a prophet, but Iโm popular here and they love me. Iโve got many fans in America โ there are so many more of those who like me than those who donโt that they donโt really matter.
โIโm a clean boxer, and they like clean boxinโ here in England. England wasnโt with America on the Vietnam war, England isnโt with America on a lot of things. Iโm not gonna say nothinโ against America, but Iโm not with her on a lot of things.
The room by this time is almost full, mainly black fans with a fair number of Muslim sisters immaculate in their long linen dresses, and I can see that Ali is anxious to greet them, so I cut it short.
โOne last question, Muhammad,โ I say. โThere have been suggestions that you hypnotise your opponents. Is there anything in that?โ
โSure I do,โ he says with that irresistible grin. โSure I hypnotise them โ I hypnotise them with skill!โ
It was a typical Ali exit line.
When Muhammad Ali shocked the world.